Automatic transcription, it can contain errors:
Alessandro Oppo: Welcome on another episode of Democracy Innovator Podcast and our guests of today are Marco Cappato and Francesco Vecchi and thank you for your time.
Marco Cappato: Thank you.
Alessandro Oppo: And you're working on a Eumans, right? What is the, yeah, the movement?
Marco Cappato: Is a pan-European movement of popular initiative. What does it mean? A movement that is directly European, so open to the membership of people all around Europe without the need of passing through national organization. So it's a directly citizen-led movement directly at the European dimension and is political but non-electoral. So popular initiative because we do politics in a political initiative but through the tools of civic participation at European level, for example the European Citizens Initiatives, but also national, regional and local level. Because we think that the two main limits and problems of democracy nowadays are: first of all, democracy is mainly national but the problem of our era are mainly transnational, supra and and international also. And we also think that elections, electoral democracy is too concentrated, focused on short term consensus in front of problems that need long term solutions. So there is the need to complement electoral democracy, national electoral democracy, through a robust dose, a strong dose of pan-European citizen-led democracy, direct participation.
Francesco Vecchi: Yeah let let me add a couple of things. I do think that what Marco said is really true. The point is that Eumans was also born to fill in the gaps of a few dissatisfactions we believe as citizens in general, but especially, you know, we started from Italian use case. And the dissatisfaction were not only the scope of the participation meaning, you know, national versus international, but also the satisfaction that a lot of widespread, a lot of campaigns, a lot of ideas that would be widespread among the public—so I don't know, for example euthanasia rights or abortion rights and other things—didn't really find any match into the political debate because any party is a bit worried of losing some specific consequences that will be against that. And since party politics is about gaining consensus and gaining let's say quantitative consensus, no one can can really afford losing that kind of political support. Therefore we do believe that there are some topics that should be discussed outside or at least that whose discussion should be complemented outside of a usual representative democracy and this is the case again for transversal political initiatives.
Alessandro Oppo: And now you're both working on a campaign called CivicAI right?
Marco Cappato: Yes we do.
Alessandro Oppo: What is the CivicAI?
Francesco Vecchi: Well that it this is a very tough question maybe I can step in here. The problem in defining Civic Artificial Intelligence is that we are first of all speaking of a moving target under so many different layers. The technology itself is a moving target. The technology itself is extremely complex and you know it is multilayered: it starts from the infrastructure, then it gets to the layer of how data are collect, stored, gather and used, and then there is the... then there is the level of the algorithm, then there is the level of the software, and then there is the level of the interface with users and the effects that artificial intelligence might have on specific users and citizens. Thus far it's not only the technology which is a moving target but the regulation on the technology is a moving target on its own. I mean we have the example of the European Union and other places in the world are starting to regulating AI of course we completely different approaches compared to the European Union's one. But then another problem is also that that can I can say the dissemination of this technology into the contemporary public sphere and especially the digital sphere is constantly changing because we are also getting used to the different applications. So is CivicAI a fight against the disinformation, generative AI led disinformation? Is CivicAI, I cannot say, the campaign for ensuring that each specific layer that I mentioned earlier complies with European values and democratic values? Is it a campaign for increasing and enhancing civic participation online also through the support of CivicAI chatbots or virtual assistants or platforms? I mean the point is that CivicAI is a bit of everything. Maybe I'll leave the floor to Mark to explain what was the original idea of CivicAI and then I can get back the word to explain you know what we did in the last few months and what we are trying to do, what we what we plan to do in the coming weeks and months.
Marco Cappato: But well I will start from the consideration that almost, I think 99.999% of investment of huge immense amount of money poured into artificial intelligence in the current times is driven by either commercial purpose, profit company, either control, warfare, security. But there is virtually no investment or really marginal on the use of AI to empower the citizen. That's exactly the meaning of Civic AI: artificial intelligence as a public service. There is no major invention and technological advancement that didn't have both the private commercial use but at the same time the issue of how this invention could be provided as a public service. Let's think about I don't know power, electricity, gas, mobility, cars and so on. The revolution that we are experiencing that is already triggered is... there is a lot of debate on how we should regulate and limits the the risk of abuse and manipulation and so on, but there is no real discussion and most most important no real big plan and investment on how this revolution could also, not as an alternative, but also be used to benefit the citizens and empower the citizens on those issues without direct commercial interest. The first example, the main one probably, is democracy. We know that democracy is in a big is is in a big crisis there is lower and lower participation rate, attendance rate to elections and people are losing faith and trust on how democracy could really help in giving solutions to the problem of daily life. So the idea of empowering through artificial intelligence the possibility of citizens of dialoguing and acting with institution and among themselves to find solution for their life, for the quality of their life, for the quality of the of the environment... this is something that we cannot hope that would be solved by big tech in Silicon Valley or in China. This is a political problem that need to be replied with a political solution at the public institutional level. And the European Union is the only dimension that could in a way federate, aggregate what is already existing as civic use of artificial intelligence to make them interoperable, to unite them and to create a digital ecosystem to empower the citizens in the daily life. So the the this is the idea of having of having also this path for the future of artificial intelligence not only the current path that billions of billions of billions of billions are invested and attracted attracted and attracted to.
Francesco Vecchi: Yes if I may add something on this if I... thank you Marco for mentioning you know the need for creating I can say an ecosystem, digital ecosystem. This is exactly one of the most important things to clarify when we speak about CivicAI. What we do have in mind is trying to outline a European digital public sphere. Since you know technologies in general but especially AI are influencing every single aspect of how we do interact publicly—so they're influencing the way information is shared, they're influencing the way we interact with the public organizations or public institutions, they are influencing also our daily lives—we must ensure that everything in our you know in in their in this mixed reality, in this hybrid reality that we are living through, you know which is mixing I cannot say physical assets and digital assets, we must ensure that this also exists at the same... this is per this is permeated by democratic values. At the same time while this was the gen the original idea of the petition... maybe not all of you know that any citizen in the European Union can how can I say can submit a petition to the European Parliament and this was exactly what Marco did supported by some experts especially from Italy but not only from Italy. The what happened to the petition was that the petition was first examined by the Committee of the European Parliament dedicated to petitions and then we were asked to present it in April 2025 in front of the on the committee. In that case Marco asked me to go simply because of losing Brussels and and after in that case we gather the support of all representatives from all mem or all groups of the parliament for our initiative initiative. In that I must admit that in that case we did not only present again the petition was already existing and you can still find in our website but what we tried to outline is exactly this: the pan-European digital public sphere. And this public sphere was composed of four main strengths. The first one is a civic assistance so we you know in our effort to explain what we mean with Civic AI the first visualization that we got was a sort of chatbot of virtual assistant that system that would help any citizen navigate not only the complex framework of the European Union but especially the all the participatory opportunities the deliberative opportunities they can jump in and in general gather insights and feedback on how they can actively participate in the European democracy. There are plenty of things that citizens can do for example provide feedback to open consultations of the European Commission this is gonna be important also for later on they can on the heavier side portal they can for instance participate in the citizen engagement forum sometimes there are participatory and deliberative initiatives such as was the Conference on the Future of Europe but in most cases people simply don't know. And what we have to what we have to accept when we do politics is that citizens are getting used not even at having you know services delivered as a softwares or as as platforms but they are getting used of having services delivered through virtual assistants and chatbots. This is the main trend we see so we would like that public services not only as the public the services given by public authorities but also democracy which is a public service in its own I mean it is so trivial admitting this but still you know sometimes we do forget that democracy should be a public service in its own well we must ensure that they are provided in the most citizen friendly way. Why am I mentioning all of this? Because this was just in fact the first strand. That there are other strand for example we mentioned the participatory dashboard so let's say a sort of platform that once you sign in with your ideally European digital identity according to the data you provide to the specific platform you see all the participatory initiatives that you can produce that that they can join depending of course on your residency rights your nationality rights your citizenship rights and so on and so forth. And third there was the the liberation engine so creating a sort of tool that would help the public deliberation through all the techno including AI but through other technologies that help create collective intelligence among topics and I mean these technologies already existed again in the platform for the Conference on the Future of Europe so we're not saying to deploy something completely new but just to adapt what's existing to a slightly different scope. And finally but this is probably one of the most important layers there is what we call the democracy data commons. So the concept of data commons and I know that Marco probably would like to add something on that as well but the the concept of data commerce is creating this sort of data spaces that are public not necessarily publicly managed but definitely publicly owned and publicly controlled and governed not necessarily again by a government like let's say the European Commission but it might be by third authorities or independent authorities like the European Data Protection Supervisor but this data this data space would collect all the data regarding the democratic participation online and civic participation online. Why is it paramount? Because currently there are plenty of participatory tools particip digital democracy tools but sometimes they are either can I say the data is either stored by specific private oriented actors or they they are stored even outside of the EU there are some platforms that are based in the UK and these of course would create some issues in for any like I say pan European digital democracy tool because I mean if your data is not even under European law then of course you know this raises issues. I could go on with the next steps so so probably I would like Marco to spend a couple of words on data com because he we recently had an idea also on this.
Marco Cappato: I would like to know the Alessandro's reaction because we gave you a lot of information so yeah what what what idea have you made out of all of this of what civic artificial intelligence could be? Sorry if I ask a question instead of replying.
Alessandro Oppo: I like the question and I'm thinking about all the interesting things that you mentioned mentioned early. I'm thinking about how information is power I mean if citizen knows what they can do then they have also the power to do it but as Francesco said like often the citizen doesn't know what he can actually do and and I was wondering like this dissatisfaction that citizen has so we have seen also how people maybe I mean they still vote there there are election but we cannot say that representative democracy is at the the it is is not the it is moment for representative democracy and I totally agree about the possibilities that we have now using technology to make politics more accessible for citizens because as you said like Francesco with a chatbot maybe it's easier to to tell to tell to a citizen what he can do or what are the possibilities and I'm thinking also about the the digital ecosystem that is also something very important because probably I can imagine that several platforms are needed several expertises and and yeah I totally also agree about how to that it it is necessary to break the circle of of technology used for control or for commercial reasons and actually it was yesterday I was at the table with some PhD students that that are studying these kind of things and we were also thinking about what is the CivicAI because I asked them the question and it is actually not an easy thing to it's not actually easy but yeah I I think.
Marco Cappato: Maybe do some examples that could be useful maybe also for for those who probably could think okay but do we really want the state or Europe or the European Union be an actor in the artificial intelligence race is this realistic or is really something that is suitable even more than realistic well let's think about for example platforms or civic participation nowadays if you want to take an initiative maybe in your own neighborhood in your own city council because you need to ask I don't know the respect of a park of a green area and so on what you do what are the tools usually you have this alternative on one side you have social media you can open pages on Facebook launch debates on TikTok and Instagram and so on but you know that the algorithm will will will in a in a way will push would push the the the content would push the content that are polarized and aggressive or with a very strong idea and proposal but civic participation should follow another logic because you don't need to sell publicity advertisement products so the the unfortunately civic participation the tools the noncommercial tool for civic participation are boring or nonexistence or technologically I mean not even digital sometimes you don't even have a possibility of digital interaction. So let's think about how important would be to have a platform for digital participation empowered with artificial intelligence user friendly and at the same time with an algorithm conceived in a way that dialogue is promoted to speak but also to listen to have a real interaction among citizens okay and many local civic digital things exist around Europe but they are not interconnected they are not you have you don't have a single sign on to like to have access to all the digital tools of interaction with the state and with other citizens around Europe. So this could be one of the concrete outcome of an ecosystem of civic of European Civic AI to have interoperability of platform of democratic participations and this is not something that a giant in Silicon Valley or in China could do even because democracy is a two delicate things you need to have for example when we are talking about signing with a formal legal value a petition or a proposal of referendum or a ballot the state is the only out is is the only authority that can identify and certify that signature as as as a real one so to to ensure the legality of the process so this is why we think that even if the technological race toward artificial intelligence is not something that the state could play or should play a competition role from the point of view of the user of the citizens the empowerment with artificial intelligence based system could be crucial in having their rights democratic rights but even social rights on civic participation or public goods for example for the as a user of public goods this dimension needs to be empowered through a political choice of investment by public authorities.
Francesco Vecchi: Yes again let me let me take a step back to move a step forward. So whenever we speak about CivicAI sometimes people get the impression that we do want the European Union or or whatever a public actuary in the regard to develop a platform or develop a chatbot and put it in the hands of the citizens I mean developing this kind of tool is extremely expensive and not always public institutions do have the talent pool needed to develop something and would effectively work and in that case case again you know as Marco was saying I mean we they would put themselves into competition with the private actors that have more money more talent and more expertise in the field. So why did I mention to take a step back? Let's have a look at the European digital wallet and the eIDAS framework. What did the European do Union do in in that regard? They first of all developed a framework that would define would outline some rules some guidelines on how to deploy softwares and tools or trust service providers for digital identity that happened I mean I don't remember if five ten years ago the first version and then recently the second version was published according to the frameworks that were deployed by the European Union. Basically the assumption was okay if you comply with these frameworks and you deploy a specific tool then this tool will receive that kind of public certification that Marco was mentioning earlier they created a sort of marketing incentive in that case for example in Italy we had the deployment of two main tools well on the one hand you have SPID on the other hand you have the electronic digital identity two completely different structures they are slightly different but let's say that both comply with the eIDAS framework. What happened then that with that with those tools for example monaco and especially such as Sanluca Cocconi and other actors in Italy they both were getting the possibility of signing digital the referendums which means you know that these platforms that had just received the market incentives let's say because they were compliant with rules with laws so they could be used for anything public and official then now they are actually used for signing official referenda at least the proposal sorry Mark if you make a mistake. Why am I mentioning all of this? Well because for example something that the European can Union can do is this: first of all write a sort of framework for what is what is needed for electronic participation tool to be compliant with the EU law and to be officially recognized for any interaction happening on this tool to be officially recognized by the European Union. Second deploy as I was mentioning a sort of data space for democracy in order to and binding every actor private or public may they be to store the data and to manage the data through that data space which is public publicly owned of course you know people it is open but people cannot get access to personalized data but they can only access to anonymized data for doing research and whatever. And then deploy always the European Union a sort of a single sign on platform may it be a chatbot may it be I don't know a dashboard or whatever where you can sign up with your European digital identity and once you're signed up I mean depending on your data okay you get what is it that you see what you see is not only the participatory opportunities that you are in but every municipality every level of governance can upload a participatory process online choosing themselves the specific tool they use but with the data that goes again to the democracy data commons. Why is this solution more feasible than deploying a chatbot by the Europe the public administration because for example this would not only how can I say this would only require interoperability of all the systems especially with the European digital wallet they would not this would not necessarily require a centralized data storage this would not require a centralized tool but it would in fact allow for a proliferation of decentralized tools so on decentralization in fact they can move a step forward you know you asked us it's not so easy to understand what CivicAI is k everything that I just mentioned is not even AI I mean there could be a virtual assistant or a chatbot that would help you navigate across all these platforms or whatever there could be some machine learning systems again you know to regulate the debate online according to specific rules there can be some I don't know yeah some complex data analysis for creating collective intelligence on specific participatory processes again these are also AI technologies but can be achieved even with other technologies. But when we speak about Civic AI we could also mention again for example the infrastructure layer so currently as Marco was saying the AI market is extremely centralized by few monopolies the tone and not only I cannot say that the software and they do not really allow anyone to understand what are the weights what is the whole process they use because of course they base their their business model on that but the problem is that oftentimes what is centralized is infrastructures I've recently gone to the I recently been to the Mozilla Festival in Barcelona and there I attended to a session that was speaking of how a federated AI system is possible so different organizations different places can have their I don't know data servers or or whatever is needed to deploy as an artificial intelligence system and then what they can do is to federate the system so that the data is still owned by any specific organization but their AI models are trained on all the data so they can run all over the data but yet you know this data doesn't get centralized so again why am I mentioning this when it comes to Civic AI because one of the questions that we have to ask ourselves is do we want AI to be held by a monopoly made to be public or private or do we want it also to reflect the values of democracy of even competition in the way that are embodied in the European Union at the infrastructure level as well and there again I mean we can start conversations on for example even on blockchain technologies and distributed venture technologies and how to use them but just to this is just to have to understand that beyond visualizing what CivicAI is what is important to understand is that artificial intelligence is a general technology as much as was the internet and as such it affects many different layers and translating our democratic values and our civic values into AI to make it to enhance the civic participation and not reduce it you know through profundation and through I can say the increase of misinformation whatsoever well we really need to reflect at all the different layers of this technology and in this regard probably Europe if it would if if it would adopt a different approach compared to the other two giants especially US and China well probably it would really find their way of being competitive in the market through a more democratic approach to technology which is not only reflected in I don't know huge words like trustworthy citizen sense you can blah blah regulation that is only risk based as it is now.
Alessandro Oppo: It's very interesting the the data space thing it's also something that with some people that are developing civic tech tools we were thinking about because let's say there is a citizen citizen assembly I don't know in Italy and then another one in in Germany then if the topic is similar then it will be worth it maybe to have a connection between the two citizen assembly to understand better what citizens wants and yeah it's it's very interesting these things.
Marco Cappato: And yeah maybe we could we could raise the question which are the only data that a a a dictatorship will never have access to because we know that for example in China there is no privacy issue so every data are collected in a massive way without privacy restriction so we we tend to think which is true they have a huge competitive advantage in terms of the amount of data they can use to train artificial intelligence for commercial and control purpose but which is the dataset they will never have the democratic participation dataset if we as Europe if we would make systematic the promotion of civic participation citizens assembly local democracy local referendum local ballot proposal regional national European and those data anonymized of course how how huge value we could extract from it in terms of what are the needs of the people the priorities for their own lives and if you combine this to the data that are owned by public authority because we also tend to think okay now Silicon Valley they have all our personal data because we are on the iPhone and Facebook and TikTok and so on but we don't have to forget that for the time being maybe in ten years it would be different but the huge the the biggest amount of data it's still in the hands of the state even if the state is not using as Silicon Valley is using but the health data for example are detained by the state justice related the justice system data but all the the public activity that are producing data that sometimes are not even collected by the state so this is why at the European level we could create a dimension for the use for the collection and use of public data for public purpose and we could use we we could also add the possibility of voluntary donate our personal data anonymized of course to to in a way to to to nourish to make grow this public data dataset so I think that even at the level of data that we tend to think that is a lost battle because the giant of artificial intelligence are treating amount of data that the the public entity will never will never be able to use I think this is not true but is it it is not true if we choose to invest on the creation on the treatment on the collection and the treatment of those data of course if we stay steady and looking at what is happening without doing anything I think that unfortunately the the the state and the and the public dimension of institution and the public interest will become less and less relevant because if the world is changing without and outside public institution and the public interest and the democracy well democracy will lose value it will not be any longer an activity considered strongly considered by the people as an activity able to improve their lives and this would be the final defeat for democracy not the crisis but but really the defeat this is why to invest on on this macro level that we call Civic AI and as Francesco explained can mean many many different things is really a political strategical choice that has to be made but it's a huge choice because in ten years the amount of money that would be collected for commercial purposes if we don't do the same thing for public use purposes would be would be so so so bigger that the the it would be a lost battle to try to include public interest logic and citizens led logic in the race in the in the artificial intelligence race.
Francesco Vecchi: Yes this let me add something I mean let me go back to what I said earlier I think that in the last few decades we forgot that democracy is a public service I mean let's think about that you know most of the public debate happens on digital platforms that are profit led and private owned not even inside of the European Union I mean I I think that both Marc and I have nothing against businesses okay that's not the problem but the problem is that if the public debate happens mostly on private owned platforms it means that those who own other platform can dictate the rules and this is the reason for which I mean back in the days I mean let's not speak about Trump and now you know what's happening for example on platforms like Meta Facebook and blah blah for what concern for example feminist content and whatsoever but before Trump step in these platforms that are mostly US based would follow the need the the policies of the the government back in the days which was the democratic government and therefore I mean you saw that Donald Trump was just banned from Twitter because after January 6 and I mean there were other contents that were you know censored or limited whatsoever I mean even though we can agree that those content must be censored the point is that who is in charge of censoring them and this must be the public if we decide to censor them or this debate must be held on a public platform until it is held on a private platform this is gonna be a problem but most of us simply accepted this since there are these huge marketplaces let's say these huge single sign on places so I mean one size fits all and everyone has to go there if I were the representative of a newspaper I would seriously think but do we really want to communicate what we do on this social network and this is just one one case okay let's take another one there are some especially local public institutions that are already deploying chatbots and virtual assistants to interact with the public the problem is that oftentimes they are extremely limited like they they only answer to you know questions about what are the services that they provide and if you ask the questions for instance a question for instance who is going to be the candidate at the next step municipal elections in my town they do not provide the answer they don't have it even though they are the public authority and at some point you know they will have to register you know these elections how they who will win or not but the other problem is also that it's I think it's news from the last month Microsoft so meaning Copilot bought the license for a lot of data from Harvard Medical School most likely this happened because because they want to make Copilot the most trustworthy chatbot for what concerns data on even basic help which means that you would ask Copilot if you can take paracetamol while you're drinking or vice versa okay but these kind of basic medical questions should be deployed by the public I mean this should be a question of you know public health services why is it a pre vet company that will get all this interaction data and understand what are the needs of the citizens and then can use that data to provide even further services there are I mean again neither Marc or I are against businesses personally I have no issues with them but the point is that there is a series of services that must be deployed by the public or otherwise we are creating a very tricky situation.
Alessandro Oppo: I totally agree I'm thinking that maybe this differences is also something that I mean US and Europe have different approach to health one that is more public and one more private and I have a lot of other questions but I don't know if you have more time or if...
Francesco Vecchi: But I can stay until one as I said so I don't know Marco if he has to step out already.
Marco Cappato: Or I have still a few minutes because I need to go so if there is a last question for me then I will leave you for the final.
Alessandro Oppo: Yeah it is so all this ecosystem all the data space and so on could maybe lead the to some to a society where all citizens are also active maybe where they can actually participate visual that this is possible.
Marco Cappato: I mean in in in society already cooperation has played a big role we are not only I mean there are plenty of nonprofit dimensions of our private life even from from family relationship and friends and also the relationship with the community and and we know how how this is important as Francesco said it's not against the the the market or is not alternative but we do a lot of things because we like to do to to for cooperation and in a way to to be useful to the others or also for our own interests through democratic participation because we have to defend our rights and even our economic interests so the the political dimension and the social dimensions are a very important part of our society the risk is that if artificial intelligence empowers only the part of our life which is dominated by the logic or is included in the logic of market interaction the social dimension of our life risk to lose weight to lose importance in our own life and at the contrary I think that if we would be able in an easy way in a consumer friendly way to reinforce to raise the part of our life dedicated to society and the others we would do that so I think that well it would be naive to to think that everybody want to participate that everybody want to make their political initiative is not what I think but at the same time if it would make if if it would if it would have been made much more easier to do so that will we would see a huge increase in quantity and quality of civic participation and socially driven actions see this I really do believe because human being is a social animal.
Francesco Vecchi: Interrupt you but I mean just to ask you I mean what happened with the Italian platform for presenting a referendum online well there was a blossoming of of proposals was it.
Marco Cappato: This was a huge change because nowadays you have a lot of ballot and even referendum proposal that are made easier at least in the collection of of signature phases but of course democracy is not about just about voting but not even just about signing democracy is something more it's being format discussing is a dialogue there are a lot of processes that should be facilitated before the moment of voting or signing something so this is the ecosystem with that we need to build thanks to digital innovation and we are not doing so if not in in marginal ways in marginal experiment at at the local level or sometime at national level but there is no the the the the the political really decision of following this path of choosing this priority for the evolution of the democratic state this would be important to provoke with the with this action this is what we are asking to public authorities to do.
Alessandro Oppo: Thank you a lot both.
Marco Cappato: Thank you I listened to you but I will not speak anymore because I'm on the move thank you good job.
Alessandro Oppo: Thank you again and
Francesco Vecchi: Yeah I don't know if you have another question because I'm...
Alessandro Oppo: Yeah maybe another question could be like if you have a message for the people that are actively searching for new solution for related to citizen participation maybe they are developing software maybe they are trying to do something like CivicAI but I don't know in another continent somewhere else but like yeah if you have a message for them.
Francesco Vecchi: Yes I mean this is a message not only for them but for ourselves as well I mean there are plenty of platforms for civic engagement and democratic participation online there are plenty of solutions believe me indulgence but I think that most of them have already been interviewed in this pod in my in my point of view sometimes when we deploy these tools we tend to think more of the offer and supply say and lessen the demand this is something that Marc and I would like to investigate something that Eumans keeps you know reflecting on I mean is there really demand for more democracy is there really demand for more participation and under what terms in what shape what I was mentioning earlier you know about that everyone is getting used to interacting with chatbots and retro system and the first way of interacting digitally that was not the case five years ago that was not the case fifteen years ago we I do think that we should not only think of the tool and make the tool perfect but thinking of something that is really used and effective for citizen and answers to their demands otherwise we are creating a cathedral in the desert.
Alessandro Oppo: I totally agree about listening to their demands because sometimes this is a question that I ask my I ask myself a lot of times why people are not participating and then I thought maybe they are participating already it's just that I don't see it and so I really agree that we should listen and be...
Francesco Vecchi: Oh no they are participating I mean Marco said it but he didn't use these words but when we say pan European we mean transnational and translocal something that we're getting while interacting with the especially with people that are not Italians even though the Italian base is our strongest constituency is that they do engage a lot but at a local level while Italians are mostly used to engaging at the national level or you know levels determined as surely welcome why is it relevant because I mean if you deploy a tool we have to understand that every different let's say at least people at the if we speak if we are thinking about the European Union let's take the member state and let's define the people the citizens of the member states each people interacts with democracy in completely different ways and this is the result of centuries of interactions at the local national regional level it highly depends on the history of specific country or member state there's something to be taken into account and the other point is why have there been moments such as me too fridays for future and then there were all black lives matter and so on and so forth what or even now currently there is My Voice My Choice which is a European citizen's initiative I collected way more than 1,000,000 signatures and now it's interacting with the European Parliament the European Commission to push forward abortion rights in Europe why did these things work because there was a strong demand behind there were decades of debate or public opinion built in this regard I mean this is why you know even participatory and grassroots initiatives thrive regardless of the platform they use but unless there is that demand people are less involved in and what is interesting in my point of view is that I don't know if it is just because of digital tools whatsoever but clearly people are less engaged with traditional politics that requires a sort of tribal to accept you know a series of values a series of proposals you were part of the tribe and you couldn't get out of the community but people can engage on single issues even with the completely different perspectives they can agree on a specific topic and this is the case for example on newton major rights there you have people from all over the spectrum from the far left to the far right depending on what do they do believe is their need they can you know just forget that they come from a traditional from a political tradition and then support them initially so I do think that you know when it when it comes to thinking about the needs of the the demand of service we don't have just translate existing processes into the digital world we do have to completely rethink the processes according to as Habermas would say this new structural change of the public sphere.
Alessandro Oppo: So let's change how this is exactly working I mean let's think about new ways to make participation easier so that it can happen everything that you and Marco described in the...
Francesco Vecchi: Yes if you want to contribute to how we think about how democrat democratic participation should happen digitally I mean there is a page on our website where you can join the campaign joining the campaign means that you can get access to our working groups and you can cocreate with us the proposal I mean now we spoke about a lot we we gave you a lot of information a lot of ideas and most of them are not Marco's nor maynes they are just you know the ideas of the community that got integrated in all of our activities we try to cocreate in this campaign with everyone and we try to experiment so currently I mean we will soon move to this course so we will have a Discord community for the campaign we also already have a Decidim page for some specific activities when I started coding it in the campaign I tried to cocreate each any each feedback to the European Commissions public consultations together experimenting with multimeter or with other methods for gathering collective intelligence I mean we are trying our way out because we do see that what exists is not working and probably we need to experiment and this is probably what they like the most of this campaign we are literally building a political pipe from scratch and it's extremely I can say it's extremely exciting.
Alessandro Oppo: Absolutely and thank you again Francesco it's...
Francesco Vecchi: Thank you Alessandro for hosting us.
Alessandro Oppo: I'm very curious to see the how the campaign will go yeah thank you Anthony...
Marco Cappato: Ciao thank you.
Alessandro Oppo: ...very much you soon.
