This episode was automatically transcribed, there could be errors.
Intro
Alessandro Oppo00:00Welcome on another episode of Democracy Innovators podcast, and our guest of today is, Michihito Matsuda. Yeah. And, and thank you for being here. Yeah. And, you lead an interesting experiment, an AI part in Japan. And, would you like to tell us more about this project?
Michihito Matsuda00:28Okay. First of all, hello, everyone. Thank you for having me today. I'm Michihito Matsuda. Call me Michi or also known as the AMA of Japan. I am very honored to join you from Tokyo, Japan. A question on the AI AI Maya project. Yes. I launched, the AI Maya, as a social experiment to challenge traditional politics using AI and collective intelligence. We, wanted, to test whether, we could use, prediction market data and AI tools to make, politics more transparent, participatory, and, evidence based. I'm not just, about, it's not just about technology. It's about restoring trust in democracy, by innovate, involving more people in policy, decision making through, new tools. That's all.
Motivation
Alessandro Oppo01:54And, is there a moment in your life that you can associate to this project? I mean, when you had idea.
Michihito Matsuda02:06Yeah. Good question. That, turning point, homie, was when I run for mayor of Tokyo's Tama City in, 2018. I actually, campaigned under, the, the name, AI mayor, back then. Even though, I wasn't elected, idealized, something. Powerful people are curious about new Hortons, homes of, leadership. That experience, planned, the seed for what rather become the AI party.
Alessandro Oppo03:01Okay. And you explained a a little bit, that it was a social experiment, and you were trying to use collective intelligence. But, like, if you could would you like to tell us more about the motivation behind these projects?
Michihito Matsuda03:20Yes. Politics in Japan and, many countries is dominated by all the systems. Break room deal break, backroom deal and a lack of in innovations. My motivation was to create a new political culture. One, that is open, data driven and, inclusive. And, personally, I always, believe that politics shouldn't be left only to politicians. Technology can help, ordinary people get involved in, shaping the future.
Why are AI politicians not elected, yet?
Alessandro Oppo04:16And, about, I mean, you said that, you were not elected. The the mayor, AI mayor was not elected. Do you have any idea about why this because maybe AI is too new. People do not trust AI and technology.
Michihito Matsuda04:40I think to wait. I think world will change. Now, we can be elected. Please wait ten, ten ten ten years.
Personal background
Alessandro Oppo04:56Yeah. I mean, time change. Yes. Time change changes. And, do you have anything to share about your personal life Okay. Eventually starting also from when you were a child, like, where did you grow up? Or
Michihito Matsuda05:18Good. I grew up, in Tokyo, Japan. Ever, since I was a kid, I was, curious about how society works and frustrated when things didn't seem clear. I was never a typical, political person. I studied international legal study in university in university and loud reading about systems and issues. Maybe that's where, my interest in, designing new governance, governance models, comes from. And when I was 27 years old, I started my own company and launched, file sharing service that let folks download and share for music, download and share music for free, using peer to peer technology, which was really popular at the time. It was aimed, at Japanese users. And, eventually, the music industry, filed a lawsuit against me personally, seeking $3,000,000, in damages. But, yes, the important part. Back then. There were no role, no rules regard, regating that kind of technology twenty years ago. It's a pattern. We see over and over again the role is always, playing catch up with innovation. And maybe, what we are discussing here today, might also be, operating outside the current rear framework. That's all.
Alessandro Oppo07:30Okay. And and, I mean, you explained a little bit also about your professional background, but if you want to say more or like
Michihito Matsuda07:42I, I worked in media comp media company, Internet industry, and energy industry, and energy tech. I, run-in three, mayor election, Tokyo governance election, and even for the, the national parliament. But, that's not all. I also launched AI media two, AI media three, AI media four, and, entered, them in different elections this year. And, we are not stopping here there. I'm planning to go all the way to AMEA one hundred. Now I'm focusing on using AI and the web, technology to build experimental platforms for democracy, including prediction market, who will win in the election, for elections in Japan. That's not, just politics. It's a political round beef.
Alessandro Oppo09:00Okay. And, about the mask, would you like to tell us, if there is a story behind the mask like
Michihito Matsuda09:13I messaged all the people that are working in the space between technology and approaches. Yeah. Everyone, you are working in the most important space of our time. Don't be afraid to challenge the system, but also don't ignore the human side. Technology, AI can guide us, but values, issues, and inclusion must always come fast. Keep building, stay curious, and collaborate across borders like we are doing right now. Thank you very much.
Alessandro Oppo10:00Thank you. Thank you. And and about, I was asking about the mask that you're wearing.
Michihito Matsuda10:09Can you tell us that?
Alessandro Oppo10:12Yeah. Yeah. If you want, but, no. No. If there is a story, Bihi, I mean, why you are wearing a mask? Like, if someone is can be curious about it.
Michihito Matsuda10:24Because privacy. In terms of privacy, in Japan, I think in the country or all country, there is two kind of person, people who can run for the election. Rich person or very poor person who cannot lost anything. So, of course, rich can these people can run to the election. But most of the common people cannot, run for the election because of the reputation or when the people lost direction, they cannot find new job anymore in Japan because if you run the direction, newspaper says, oh, who is he? Who is he? And SNS says, oh, who is he? He's a a pursuit or he's, intelligent or he's a crazy guy. So most of seasons, which is such find who is he. So no privacy. And after election, he cannot, come back to job anymore in Japan. That's why rich rich people or poor people, they can attend. They can run for the election only. But if you wear the mask, you can protect privacy. Please look at the SNS. Most of people, is using handle name, nickname. Right? Most of people doesn't use don't use real name in the Internet. That's a current market. So yeah. Of course, you, Alex. You are the famous guy, so you can disclose your name. And, of course, I can disclose personally that 99% of citizens cannot disclose the name, even face, because they have to protect himself, herself, or even his family. That's why I decided to wear the mask and to protect, not disclose anything, even name, place, job history.
Alessandro Oppo13:12And so and so this is a common way to add other people in Japan to run for election wearing a mask?
Michihito Matsuda13:21No. No. To protect the I will pass away. Yeah. And, the so, yeah, the government and the election committee, we we can become upset very much. But according to Roe, they have to allow us to run the direction, whiz out their face, your name, wearing mask. So Japanese election row is not enough. So that's why I can't do that. But I'm right because please don't cross the Internet. Most of people don't disclose his name. Right?
Alessandro Oppo14:17Yeah. This is also the things that you explained about, rich people and poor people, that only rich people can, easily run for elections. I'm wondering, like, if this experiment that you did, like, with the AI mayor in, some kind of sense can balance these things between, rich and poor.
Michihito Matsuda14:48But, in the first few years, unbalance happened, but, in the long term, balance, will be stable, I think, No worry.
Vision without human politicians
Alessandro Oppo15:07And, you were saying, like, that this social experiment, I mean, with collective intelligence can also bring some, new kind of politics, some new kind of, a new way of doing, and acting in the political life. And I wonder, like, if you have any hope, like, that society become, different from what it is right now. If you have a dream, like, a a longer term vision, like, of how you would like to see society and
Michihito Matsuda15:54Ideally, there should be, no human predictions. So algorithm, can, operate politics about 100%. Yeah. Because democracy, real democracy is positioned to decide everything. Right? So no need politicians. So citizens can, operate the government directly. The technology can do that, I think.
Alessandro Oppo16:33Yep. So, like, if, we think about direct democracy, it was not possible in the past. Like, now now it will be possible thanks to technology. Mhmm. But also other kind of democracies and other kind of, political system. And
Michihito Matsuda16:58Yeah. Political system is too low. So I think I think sixty sixty years old people, politicians, 70 years all the positions, 19 years old position. He they have to protect the current, balance until, they will die. So I think twenty years or thirty years later, we can achieve a risen government soon.
Alessandro Oppo17:37So so you expect that, like, in twenty years, all politicians will be digital
Michihito Matsuda17:47I think so. To all the politics. I think so. But be, behold that, the law, the, election law, has to change has to be changed. Action action row is very old, so I think, the equation, needed to be changed because that. And But because human, set the, role, for the eruption. And, due to that eruption role, we cannot do do what we have to do for future because we cannot vote, via Internet. We have to go, to the physically to vote.
Public reactions to the AI Mayor
Alessandro Oppo18:45And, when you run for the election, like, so a couple of times, if I'm not wrong, like, what were the, like, the reaction from other parties? Like, the other political parties.
Michihito Matsuda19:10Oh, he's crazy. He's strange. That's all. So or, yeah, they often ignore because if they react me, that's a benefit for me because the media have to say, have to create the actual for me. So yeah. But, in the future, situation will change. So
Alessandro Oppo19:41Yeah. I also share that I mean, technology is, like, invading, our lives, and we Yeah.
Michihito Matsuda19:49All But, personally, each persons or another other parties contacted contacted me personally, but, each big party, they relate it to each candidate, each positions, because of the code of political party conduct. So I think all the, national party, tried to keep continue current politics world until they died. Maybe twenty or three years.
AI in politics
Alessandro Oppo20:43Okay. And, and I was thinking, like, the other parties, did they try to, use some technology, like, as you did? Like, I don't know. They are integrating AI inside their political parties. Are they also doing experiments?
Michihito Matsuda21:05Yeah. I think, all of the parties started to use AI or technology who creating, their manifest or strategy or I think, most of the people started, to use Chaturgbt even my three kids, is using Chatto GPT. So now, most of people, most of Polynesia, started to use, AI, Chatto GPT blah blah blah for their personal use. But, my intention, my strategy, what do I have to do is not support too. Just, production should be replaced by AI. That's the most important things. There's a big difference between my strategy and other party's strategies. As a party is you AI as a support tool to help human. But now, I I I don't think so. Human will support. Human don't need anymore. And AI, will be, entity to do, predicts by itself. No need of human.
Concerns & advantages of AI in politics
Alessandro Oppo22:41Yeah. Absolutely. That can happen. It's also in some way a lit can be also a little bit dangerous if the I'm thinking about, I'm also seeing technology that, as I said, is invading our life. I mean, and we are using, technology a lot. Personally personally, I'm very worried by using technology for political use, and that's why I I started researching more and never more because, otherwise, it was something that was really scaring me. Because, what is scaring me is, like, having, let's say, a sort of AI that is a kind of black box that we don't know what happened inside. And, let's say, tomorrow, the AI mayor is elected, and the AI mayor, say, we have to do this, but that thing, can be, I don't know, something very controversial, or something that could be very You you understand what I mean? Like, that, Yeah. I understand what you mean. But I think
Michihito Matsuda24:08so I understand what you are worried about, but that happens right now, from fifteen years ago. So productions is doing everything, but she cannot do, cannot, know the process. Just, what we have to just we know, is the result of the politics. Right? So that is, AI is the same as the human politics, current or human politics. So they hide the process, How they decide, to the strategy, policies. I think I think, AI can replace human, politics and no issue after AI replace human positions because human positions don't disclose everything. No transparency. At least AI politics, there is a super transparency AI AI politics in AI politics. So, well, the citizens can correct the politics because they can see the process and the, transparency of the process of the politics. I think you cannot, you can, you cannot know, the old process of the, politics of Italy. Right? But if AI, GABA, AI is in charge of, Italy national politics, you can, the scissors all scissors can and become to know, the process of the why AI decide this? Why AI decided this? So you can, see, you can search, you can investigate what why, positions decide this. So I think at least, AI positions is better than the human colleagues because of the transparency in terms of the transparency.
Alessandro Oppo26:34Yeah. Absolutely. It is true that also in our political system, we don't have a lot of transparency. And, sometimes it is a sort of black box also with, classic political No black box in AI. Right? And, yeah, I I can also share the the dream that, AI can be more transparent and, in some way less corrupted, than politicians. And, but but I think that, is, a lot of work has to put into creating this kind of system to to avoid the AI as a black box Because, otherwise, someone can exploit, the fact that AI is a black box exactly as, right now our political system can be a a sort of black box sometimes. So I think a lot of effort has to put the
Michihito Matsuda27:53I don't think so because, if you see the black code, you can see black box of AI politics. You can imagine chapter GPT. So you can ask, oh, please let me know the detail of this black box part. I think next, then AI will explain the detail of Black Box. So
Alessandro Oppo28:18Oh, yeah. Yes. This is this is true. I wonder, like, you know, also also right now, it could be that, there are some political decision take by economists. Let's say, okay. Because of economy, we have seen we have to, I don't know, cut funds for education. We have to spend more military or whatever, some other things. And I think in I mean, a lot of people don't know don't have any economic knowledge. And, I also it would be hard for me to understand everything. But, of course, I do not agree, like, in cutting funding for educations, and, using that money to finance war. And I think something like that could happen also with AI. I don't know. If AI say, okay. There are these specific logic reasons why we should cut the, educational fundings and put that money to do the work because it's more convenient and so on. I know it will be the same, like, with the actual systems that we have now. It will be the same, but still a little bit more dangerous.
Michihito Matsuda29:58Yes. I think human, often take mistake. I think, AI also take mistakes. So if we can see, the AI, old, driving service, accident, happen. Sometimes Tesla, old driving service killed people like a human driver, but the ratio is better. AI driving service is ratio, the human driver. So it's very similar, to the, predictions. So I think do you know, there is a a whole six, of, AI driving old driving service in Japan. First, AI support, or driver. Driver have to grab the handle always. And, second step is, driver human driver, has to sit, the seat. And AI is driving the car, but, when, sometimes emergency happened, human take a handle instead of a cylinder, step. And, sad. Basically, human driver has to do, doesn't have to do anything, but a a human has to sit down in the inside the car. And, Jose, no need of human inside the car. AI reiterate everything. So as car driving service by AI, human, predicts market. There should be step by step, whole step. So first, AI support human positions. The second, AI lead politics. But, if emergency like a war, Ukraine, Russia, or economics, incident human, take party participate in the, politics instead of AI. And the last step final step, no need humor. Just AI do everything. But, this is democracy, so anytime, citizens can fire AI if AI mistake, using the, through the election. So we can we can select AI. We can, we we can lost we can keep out AI for the chance anytime.
Alessandro Oppo33:17Yeah. I I agree that, there has to be someone at the at the wheel at the at at least at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm very good to us to see all the experiments that, there will be in next, years' time about, yeah, how to use technology to improve the social and political life, not just for profit, but really to improve, the way we take decisions. And,
Michihito Matsuda33:55Yeah. So to be it's not a it should not be a business. So, yeah, politics is, which, politics is, owned by the all of citizens. So politics should be shouldn't be business of each person, I think.
Final remarks
Alessandro Oppo34:19Of course. Yeah. So thank you a lot, Michi. I don't know if you have something else to add, if you wanted to add the
Michihito Matsuda34:30I would like to say, everyone who is watching this movie, please learn all the election in your country. If so, you can become to know, what I I will say today, 100%. And if you need if you want to hear more, let's have, this meeting with Alex Alex and me. Again, next ones. So let's keep in touch.
Alessandro Oppo35:08Thank you a lot, Michi.
Discussion
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